Episode #225

Maria Franzoni

00:00:17 – 00:01:04

Hello and welcome back to The Speaker Show with me, your host, Maria Franzoni. In today’s show, we have a very special guest and you will recognise him if you’ve been listening in for a while. The Speaker Show is brought to you by Speakers Associates the Global Speaker Bureau for the world’s most successful organisations providing keynote speakers for events, conferences and summits, my guest is an inspirational speaker with the background as a foresight strategist who’s consulted for some of the world’s leading brands. He is fascinated by the individuals, movements and events that shine a light on social and cultural change and their impact on organisations. He has lectured at universities for over a decade, has appeared on TV and radio shows written for business magazines and being quoted across a wide range of international newspapers.

Maria Franzoni

00:01:04 – 00:01:45

His first book, The Post Truth Business, focused on authenticity and ethics. It went to number one in the business bestseller charts and was a finalist in the 2019 Business Book of the Year awards. His second book, Influences and Revolutionaries, focused on multi sector innovation and was shortlisted for the 2021 Business Book of the Year awards. His podcast, The New Abnormal looks into hope, community and resilience as the way forward, and his guests include a wide range of writers, activists, psychologists, philosophers and trend analysts. Please welcome my guest, former host of The Speaker Show Sean Pillot de Chenecey. Sean, How lovely to see you. How are you today?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:01:45 – 00:01:48

I’m extremely good form. And how are you?

Maria Franzoni

00:01:48 – 00:02:07

Well, I’m great, A little bit nervous because anybody listening in will recognise your voice as the original host of The Speaker Show. So I feel that I’m now, you know, I’m interviewing the expert, the man who basically set up the speaker show for success and got the listeners in. And then I just took over the baton. So thank you so much for doing that.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:02:07 – 00:02:09

Well, you’ve taken on to greater heights, so thank you.

Maria Franzoni

00:02:09 – 00:02:29

Well, it helps when somebody set you up for success. I’ll tell you, it makes a huge difference. So I’m honoured to have you as the expert today and let’s let’s get to understand a little bit more about you. So in the introduction Sean, I refer to as a foresight strategist. If anyone doesn’t know what that means, what is? What is a Foresight Strategist?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:02:29 – 00:03:42

Well, as they always say, that all titles are utterly ridiculous when stated in public, you know, if you’re outside an advertising agency or major brand owner and they’ve been talking about one’s title always sounds ridiculous. So one of those, but, uh, basically my background was that, uh, I spent 10 years in advertising and research working with very sort of cutting edge agencies over here in the States and elsewhere, and then are set up as a as a consultant. My partner who’s the BBC at that point, um, and so for the last 20 years, I’ve just spent a lot of my time to put it mildly, working around the world or now mainly online, conducting research, interviewing fascinating people do a lot of ethnography across Asia, States, you know, Europe, Middle East, North Africa, etcetera. And so I think, by linking that sort of thing with dare I say it, hopefully sort of attempting to have a sort of slightly cerebral view on things by linking in with, um, great authors or journalists or the political think tanks, et cetera. If you try and mix, which is what I try and do. If you like the street to the boardroom, then one has to think of some sort of quasi ridiculous title to sum it up. And so, foresight strategist. That’ll do me.

Maria Franzoni

00:03:42 – 00:03:48

I like that street to the boardroom. I think that’s really good. I’ve written that down. I’m gonna remember that I’m really good

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:03:48 – 00:04:43

Because there’s just such a disconnect, isn’t that I think we all see this, Um, and you know, again, it’s two status, stunningly obvious. You know, we’ll hear these sort of comments, you know, literally constantly when one is talking with, you know, particularly board members or whatever, Um, that they just have lost connection with reality, to put it mildly, in terms of you, like consumer reality. You know, um, how many people who are running? You know, major brands actually experience the consumer reality on a regular basis, and the answer is still absolutely minute amount. I mean, those sort of, you know, like criticisms were made back in, you know that, you know, 1920 but one of those, you know, police are challenged, so I think it’s I think it’s just really, really odd how there’s just such little clear connection. So little as Interbrand used to say. Clarity, consistency between the two. It’s extraordinary.

Maria Franzoni

00:04:43 – 00:04:50

You’re absolutely right. It is extraordinary. So tell me, Sean, how did you get interested in this area in the first place?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:04:50 – 00:06:12

Because after being in agencies for so long, and I always specialist when I wasn’t agencies and youth culture. So I still have a lot of work. You see, in the entertainment world and the music industry etcetera fashion. I still did quite a lot. Lecture that Central Saint Martins in London, College of fashion and elsewhere for the last 20 years on social and cultural trends. Uh, again, I think it was that issue has to write for a lot of magazines. I still do so back in the day. But I was like, the face and dazed and all the rest of it. Um and so you know, doing that and has to trend edit viewpoints. That was then, probably still is one of the best head to head to say it was sort of best trend magazines. There is out there. I co sort of set up the future laboratory, which I think is still, one can safely say one of the best trend agencies, if not the best in the world. Run by the mighty Martin and Chris Um, And so I think it’s that issue safe. Having a It’s like trying to explain the complicated and a reasonably simple fashion from the point of view is saying OK, we’ll hear the emerging trends. This is what’s happening in terms of consumer behaviour. Um, this is what’s happening in terms of, you know, corporate and organisational behaviour. Where is the disconnect where the tension points? Why are things falling down? Why are so many brands still not really delivering what they should be delivering? It’s something that puzzles us all

Maria Franzoni

00:06:12 – 00:06:42

Absolutely. And actually you’ve written about this extensively written two great books, and I want to go into these why they are award winning books have done very well. So I want to talk about the first book, the post truth business shares, how to strengthen consumer engagement by closing the brand credibility gap, and to read that to get it right, because I don’t want to get it wrong. I think you sort of alluded to this already, but what is this brand credibility gap and why does it exist?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:06:42 – 00:07:27

Credibility is integrity. Brands are act, are judged by how they act, not what they say to state the stunningly obvious. And yet, still, as we see most brand difference, differentiation is still wafer thin in most markets. At most levels of those markets. Etcetera, Um And so I think I mean, what really fascinated me for years was that you couldn’t go to any event. You can go to any conference. You can go to any workshop, any dare I say ideation, session or whatever and not hear someone say, you know, authenticity. The dreaded a word, you know, very, very soon. What always amazes me is how few people ever stopped and actually stated what they understood by what authenticity actually is.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:07:27 – 00:08:01

Seems like almost every other major word. You know, all the words everyone uses in ad land or marketing land or in strategy land. Um, they all have, I think, a fairly clear definition or an accepted definition in a sort of Wittgenstein type, sort of a conception of language. But authenticity always seem up for grabs. And so that’s why I sort of had that in the front cover of my first book, which, luckily went to number one and all the rest of it. Um and so then I just took a look at I mean, naturally, we talk about authenticity or things like trust and truth. You have to go back to the ancient Greeks. Um,

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:08:01 – 00:08:47

uh, spent part of my time talking about philosophy and psychology, and so I’d look there. Okay, so what is it that Aristotle was telling us? You know about authenticity. How can we understand authenticity through through the philosophers through the ages? So, you know, be either you know, ours, Murdoch or Sartre, or, you know, Russo or whoever, Hagel et cetera. And if you understand, if you like in brand terms in organisational terms, what it is that they were articulating what it is that they were suggesting, I think that often helps you to get to a very clear place of actually understanding. OK, who are we as a brand? What are we really about? I think a lot of confusion in brand teams about really genuinely

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:08:47 – 00:09:29

Who are they? What is the organisation really there for? What is the background of it? What are they to do, you know, and that helps them to reconnect with the consumer drive differentiation and have a bit of clarity. Um, so essentially, the first book really linked up those issues of truth and trust and transparency. Privacy, which is now is the huge sort of existential issue. Um, particularly the time. And I wrote that back in 2017 when you know Trump had just come to power and where notions of, you know, fake news and disinformation and misinformation and deep fakes were, you know, suddenly really, really hitting the headlines.

Maria Franzoni

00:09:29 – 00:09:39

Just saying what you say because you would think it’s quite simple to be clear on who you are, what you stand for, what you do. And yet it’s so difficult. Why is it so hard for brands to get that right?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:09:39 – 00:10:43

It’s because it’s one of those age old questions. I think most people in most organisations, man, and it’s quite odd how, if you talk to within reason, any good marketeer any good strategists or whatever any good planner any good researcher about OK, so who’s doing this? Well, they can come out with a great list but needs to be right, so what have you actually done? And they fall down? It’s still, I think it’s one of those great jokes, almost one of great truisms of the event world. You can’t go to an event. No one has been to an event in the last decade where someone hasn’t mentioned Patagonia. It’s almost like playing bingo from the audience. Like who’s going to mention it first? You know, um, and yet so everyone generally agrees. Patagonia, a wonderful organisation, superbly set up and run. Um, they all talk about them and you say, OK, so now that you admitted you really admire them, what have you actually done? If you then meet the same people six months later to perhaps mimic some of them what they’re doing to take a lead from what they’re doing And no one does just, um, it amazes. Or very few people do in a decent way.

Maria Franzoni

00:10:43 – 00:10:49

I do love the idea of having a conference bingo before you go yes.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:10:49 – 00:10:51

Yes exactly you heard it here first.

Maria Franzoni

00:10:51 – 00:11:08

Yeah. Yeah, Christmas idea. Right? We’ve got time. That might be a bit tough. So tell me, um, you’ve cited you know that people give examples and they say people you know, getting it right. Have you got any examples of individuals or brands that get it right?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:11:08 – 00:13:21

How many hours have you got? I mean, this I mean to be actually deeply serious about this. I mean, the image for me of the of the dreadful image of the Were those people falling off planes taking off from Kabul airport, You know, a dreadful sight, Um, that those images flashed around the planet. You know that that that terrible day and those terrible days, what was interesting to me was then say OK, so, you know, once the one you had sort of gasped with horror, it was very, very soon, Um, that Airbnb jumped in and said right, using that w sort of sort of analogy and said, Right, we’re going to have 20,000 Afghan refugees, bank, do it, taking what has to be said if you like an approach from perhaps Russo, you know, And so, you know, So Russo really talked about acting with passion, doing the right thing, not overthinking things. I think a lot of strategies, perhaps to answer your question around about the way a lot of marketeers, a lot of, uh of, uh, brand strategist, etcetera. Overthink things, um, and almost talk themselves out of doing the right thing, because I think it’s perhaps, in an occasion to obvious with, Russo said. You know, act with passion, you know, do what feels right. And so there we have CEO of Airbnb saying, Clearly these poor people need assistance right now, does not have 50 meetings about what we could possibly do and then put it into our business strategy for the year. He just said straight away on the CEO, We’re taking a taking 20,000 people make it happen. I think that for me, it’s just like bam. You know, the conversation almost ends a fantastic example of an organisation doing something that is relevant to them. And relevance is key. People talk a lot about, you know, the dreaded word purpose, which I think is often, you know, really little more than as the agency argued. They would put it. You know, toxic pomposity, Um, actually really saying doing something relevant and useful in the world is what brands really should be about. And as I think it’s a an absolutely amazing example, Brand stepping up to be counted.

Maria Franzoni

00:13:21 – 00:13:58

I like that relevant and useful, but also not to overthink it to actually, you know, act. I totally agree with you. There’s so much over thinking that goes on and then you know, the more you think the more likely you are not act great, Great. I love the quote about purpose to brilliant. So your second book is very, very much looks to the future, doesn’t it? Influences and revolutionaries and again so on topic and on theme and relevant to the time because we’re all seeing influencers and revolutionary at the moment. What are some of the trends you are actually seeing for 2022 and beyond that, you’re sharing.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:13:58 – 00:15:15

Well, actually, that it has to be said in terms of its sort of timing, probably the book that was released with the worst timing of all time. It reached back two days before the first lockdown. And so it’s booked into, I think, 800 airports around the world for airport bookshops. Just as everyone stopped flying. Um, so one of those. So it’s reviewed very well and then, luckily this year it was shortlisted for business Book of the year. But one of those tragically didn’t get it, but one of those. But, I mean, what I did there was and actually to be, you know, to be bluntly honest, I did it deliberately from the perspective of the speaking world to say, Okay, what are the big meta themes? Um, in conference land, if you like. And let’s write a book around that, hence literally just doing chapters on, you know, the future of retail, the future of cities feature of homes, you know, future of food and drink in short tech fin tech and all the rest of it, you know, and really So building up a picture. Oh, okay. In each of those, you know, major categories Who are some of the key players who are the legacy players that have been there for for a long time? Uh, and perhaps in a sort of Christians. And we are now having a innovator’s dilemma in front of them. But who are the startups who were really sort of Who are the new people in town who are really, really shaking things up,

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:15:15 – 00:15:24

So yeah. So, uh, the book looks at a whole range of different categories, different sectors and all the rest of it, So yeah.

Maria Franzoni

00:15:24 – 00:15:31

Fantastic. I mean, we haven’t got time to go through all of those sectors, but I’ve got some areas that I’m curious about, so I wouldn’t mind asking a couple questions and picking your brain.

Maria Franzoni

00:15:31 – 00:15:43

I mean, we’ve seen a lot of change in, obviously through the pandemic with regard to how consumers consume. How is consumption going to change in the future would you say?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:15:43 – 00:19:12

The epic billion dollar question, I think it’s interesting to me how Mr Joe put, you know, say you’re Unilever saying that it’s clear that some behavioural change is here to stay and, you know, so that the likes of Unilever have seen you know certain, you know, obviously owning brands across a multitude of categories. You know, as I stated a while ago, you know, if you basically operating in the in the hygiene space, if you’re in the trust space in the in the home space, Um, if you’re in the caring space, then quite frankly, on a purely bottom line, cold hearted business level, you basically cleaned up. You know, we know. Looking back now to state the obvious, you know, certain categories certain brands and categories have had what can be again, coldly put a very good business version of Covid because they’ve been necessary and relevant and they have performed and all the rest of it. And there’s nothing wrong with that at all. And very programmed. Um, there are others naturally that have had a dreadful time. We’ve seen a whole categories whole sectors having an absolutely appalling time, tragically as we know things like the world of live music, the world of theatre, etcetera. Um, one really, really worries about, you know, players in those sectors. So it’s really important to me how we have this, as people often will say, an almost dual reality going on. I think it’s interesting how, uh, you know what has been one of the growth areas over the last 18 months, quite frankly, has been the world of therapists. It’s amazing if you talk to psychologists, they are just booked solid. And why? Because we’ve seen now this being played out by things like when we talk about the future of work, the big term with the moment, obviously, is the great resignation. People are just you are looking at the world of work. They’re looking at their employers. Um, and they are not satisfied with what they’re seeing. Um, they want to do something differently. We’ve seen in terms of the world of architecture in terms of the future city, the future home, um, to move to as Richard Florida, the great author put it, Heroes rise of the creative class. And I’m being with Richard and in Melbourne years ago, talking about this when we’re at a very, very big event. Um, the idea of moving out of primary cities to secondary cities, the impact has been huge again that has linked into things like clustering the idea of, you know, doughnut economics, the idea of the 15 Minutes City. All those things I think have been, perhaps could have been looked at a year or so ago as being, um either slightly sort of unworldly and utopian and fined for a few, but not for the many are actually now clearly happening. I mean, Deloitte will say that you know what we’ve seen is, uh, feature on Sort of a has been given a rocket boost over the last 12 years or so. You know, we’ve seen so many trends speeding up like mad and, quite frankly, many others slowing right down or going away to finish your question very quickly. You know, 18 months ago, if we’ve been having this conversation, you and I would have no doubt talked about something like the sharing economy in the sharing economy was in every event one went to. This is where it’s all going. Nielsen doing a 60 countries study saying this issue across demographics is exploding and what has happened during a covid. We’ve seen that the idea of the sharing economy in most sectors totally stopping still. So it’s been very interesting to see how how certain areas have sped up. Others have stood still and others have basically dissipated.

Maria Franzoni

00:19:12 – 00:19:49

No wonder we need therapy. Isn’t it really? When you think about it, with what we’ve been through in such a short period of time, you’re so right. It really has things have accelerated things that the world has changed dramatically absolute dramatically. You’ve touched on so many areas you mentioned so many areas, one areas I’d like to focus a little bit more on is the workplace because, well, you know the time the recording were disrupted again, people are ask being asked to work from home. And you mentioned the great resignation. And I’m sure this whole disruption of work has had a huge effect on that. What do you see? What you see is the next development in the workplace. Would you say.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:19:49 – 00:22:52

I think, making the workplace? Um, and it’s almost not actually say the next development, but it’s an ongoing thing, and again, it takes part of this deal. Reality we’re seeing, which is on one side when one is as you like. One could argue now at work. You know, emoting, whatever you know, promoting oneself through a screen, which is what most people in most you know, it’s a business meetings or whatever are doing. We know that, for instance, one of the things that that is very, very clear it’s exhausting. To do this for eight hours a day is mentally shattering. And we’ve seen that you know, the impact on people’s people’s mental health just done something as basic as living on zoo or teams has had a hugely detrimental impact. It’s really interesting to me how many talks I’m giving now has no doubt of the many of the speakers that are Speaker Associates books because I’m fully aware of having interviewed lots of them that there are some brilliant speakers out there, Um, and good luck to them. But what I think is really interesting is how the amount of events now are being called in by the HR department. I think has exploded the idea that a lot of the major big brand owners are saying, You know what? You know it’s sacrilege. But within reason, the brands are now effectively okay. They’re running themselves or whatever. The problem they have is with the personnel, particularly the younger personnel, the ones who again, as we’re seeing now people going back into the working from home increased working from home again. You know, people who need with social animals, particularly that age group, need to be around people. They need to be in that collegiate atmosphere, and they’re having real problems in terms of mental health. Dealing with this ongoing, as the Economist and The Washington Post put it, the stop start, stop start recovery. It’s incredibly, um irritating, to put it mildly for most people, for businesses, and it’s also has a really, really negative impact So I think a lot of the if you like, the future of work issue is around building in resilience, building in, uh, strategies to literally to explain people, um, in an everyday language, how to build hope. You know, the difference between hope and optimism why the sceptics and cynics were right and how you can use that sort of thinking and the problem. I think there is that to finish it off very briefly when one is having, uh, like the usual people. When we go to talk about this the therapist, the psychologists, et cetera, they tend to talk, as do philosophers, incredibly heavy academic language, which for most people, is fairly unintelligible. So you have to be able to like to like to re articulate what those super bright people think without trashing it in a in an understandable way, which is, I think, a lot of what? Something when I’m doing that and no doubt what a lot of the other speakers are doing as well.

Maria Franzoni

00:22:52 – 00:23:13

Wow. Gosh, we’ve got a lot ahead of us, haven’t we? It’s fascinating stuff. So tell me you obviously work across all sectors and industries. Your work is relevant to everybody. As you know, You said you were talking about the future of so many different areas which are the organisations in which are the sectors that are getting it right at the moment, would you say.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:23:13 – 00:27:30

um, it’s a real killer question. So, um, start first of all, with the other way around the ones that are getting it wrong I think it’s fascinating how the world’s most fabulous industry fashion has been getting it wrong on almost every level now for several years, Um, they were quietly trying to sort of creep their way along. Uh And then, you know, people like the wonderful Extinction Rebellion that the sort of a protest movement and linked up with a couple of years ago when they started really took the fashion industry on, you know, absolutely centre stage on the catwalk, saying, Actually, no. What if you look at the carbon impact of the fashion sector? Uh, if you look at issues as we have known for years around the issues around ethics and morality and, you know, 90 client talked about this back in the nineties with a epic book, No logo, and I interviewed 90 for the face magazine. Wow. Just remember that many years ago, Um so I think this issue of sectors that are getting it wrong are really, really clear. I think they’re very rarely talked about in a if you like, in terms of, you know, brutal, simple reality at events because people don’t like to talk about that, you know, in a gathering they want to, if you like a more positive message. But one can certainly point to businesses and organisations that are doing things Will I think and again I think a great way of looking at this, to come back to putting it forward in a way that is just not as simple as Googling, you know, good brands, which obviously anyone can do again. One of the problems is that you know, most most audiences are totally able to, uh, read the latest trend reports themselves they get from their agencies. So there’s no need to repeat all of that. But if you look at it, let’s say through the eyes of a philosopher, let’s say someone like Iris Murdoch, you know, when she would talk about when she would allude to the issue of authenticity with so many brands being obsessed with being authentic, she was saying, the key point that is missing from a lot of that authentic sort of obsession we can quite sort of took in a focused and all the rest of it in a very narcissistic she’d say. It’s all about empathy. Are you genuinely caring and thinking about the other? Because if you’re just thinking about yourself as you, your personal brand, or you the the organisational brand and then you’ve got a real problem. And empathy is something that for years was looked at as being a bit weak, a bit liberal with a small L. You know, actually, what have we seen? Deering covid those brands that stood up to be counted, those brands that you know always back on. You know, we will remember the first months of covid when, Okay, let’s say, in Europe and North America, when there was a great um, let’s say a great lack of face masks, and there’s a real concern about this. A brand like Melita, the German coffee brand, just realise that their their coffee filters, where the same shape as a face mask and just retool the factory to make face masks. So again, doing something relevant and useful that was needed, Doing it straight away again. Taking that Russo approach, acting with passion, not overthinking things. Absolutely fantastic. So I think again, it’s been really interesting how this sort of behaviour has been noticed. You know, we’ve seen again, just stunningly obvious that the incredible importance of local community to communities around the world, which is linked into local retailers and all the rest of it So that idea of people needing one another all those basics social animals needing to nurture another look after our neighbours look after the elderly. Look after the lonely person in the street applauding the health services around the world. All these sort of shared things show us something. This is important. This is reality. This is what people need and like. So I think a lot of it is just literally going back to look at things from a really clear minded, um, you know, it’s a street level way to say Okay, what do people actually need? How are people actually living? What is it that brands have got to do to actually be useful and relevant, as well as being, you know, attractive and all the rest of it.

Maria Franzoni

00:27:30 – 00:27:51

Here’s a challenging question for you because you you attend a lot of conference and events and I listen to that answer in depth there that you gave me. Do you think that brands, when they have their conferences and events, do you think that they’re challenging their status quo, challenging what they’re doing enough. Are they going far enough? Are they thinking, you know, far ahead enough? Would you say.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:27:51 – 00:28:32

I’m thinking, Not at all. I mean to be bluntly obvious. And I mean, it has to be said, You know, this is the elephant in the room, I think is that it still amazes me how few events one goes to are genuinely challenging. If you go into a let’s say into a strategy meeting into a planning meeting in a in a good agency, then you’ll tend to have really hard hitting in depth, well thought through research based, reality based discussions about the problems that that the brand, perhaps in question, is facing. You know what the real tension points, you know? What have we got to be sorting out here? Where are we tripping up

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:28:32 – 00:29:38

And yet, if you go to most events or certainly most events I’ve been to the last 20 years, most of them tend to be, I think, a bit of a parade of quite comfortable views, a lot of them that are in many cases almost exactly the same as every other event. And we talked almost jokingly about, you know, playing event bingo. I wouldn’t mind betting that, you know, if one must go to, you know, 50 events and, you know, and noted down the key points that are being made, how many of them are identical? Now if they are identical in being useful, then great. But I wouldn’t mind betting. Um and I certainly had the impression that most of them are fairly, um lacklustre has to be said so I think so. I think to answer your point, I think the like. The sharp thinking that takes place in really good planning departments and strategy departments on the brand owner and on the agency sides tends not to be as replicated as clearly. And it’s brutally, simply simply in most big events. I don’t understand why.

Maria Franzoni

00:29:38 – 00:29:56

Okay, well, the challenge has been laid down here a new game and a new challenge how’s that that amazing what you can do in 25 minutes. Isn’t it incredible? So, finally, Sean, because obviously you you look to the future. What’s next for you?

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:29:56 – 00:29:57

For me? Personally?

Maria Franzoni

00:29:57 – 00:29:59

Yes and your business. You and your business.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:29:59 – 00:31:06

Well, I mean literally. Just start out just finishing off my current project. I’ve been working on a very interesting project doing research in Beijing and Shanghai and Seal. So I just got to finish that off the next few weeks and then more talks, more business school talks do a sort of a lot of just looking at again where brands are going next, more agency talks. And, you know, the big one of the big global PR agency next week. Um, obviously, like this, I do a lot of my podcasting. So a lot of that in terms of talking with a lot of activists and against psychologists, philosophers and journalists about sort of where they think things are going. And as with all these things, we all shamelessly steal each other’s ideas as should be done. Nothing wrong with that at all. Karl Popper, the great Karl Popper always said one should be constantly refreshing one’s thinking, Um, criticism is good. Look to the other. As Camp said, You know, people fool themselves, they know everything. They certainly don’t so one of those. So I think so. Mixing and matching interesting thinking is what it’s all about. And certainly, yes, that’s what I’m attempting to do.

Maria Franzoni

00:31:06 – 00:31:21

Lovely. I love that interesting thinking. That’s right. And of course, we will be on the side working on our new conference bingo game. So you watch out for that. Fantastic. Sean, thank you so much. I hope you’ve enjoyed being on the other side of the mic for this particular podcast. Thank you.

Sean Pillot de Chenecey

00:31:21 – 00:31:27

Marvellous. Thank you indeed. As always, of course, the wonderful hosts. So brilliant!

Maria Franzoni

00:31:27 – 00:31:56

Thank you and thank you, everyone for listening to the speaker show. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating on apple podcasts. You can keep up with future episodes at the Speakers Associates website, which is speakersassociates.com, or your favourite podcast app. And if you would like to invite Sean to challenge your audience at your next conference, and I highly recommend you do, please get in touch with speakers associates in plenty of time to book him so that you won’t be disappointed. Anyway, it’s bye bye from me. I will see you all next week. Thank you.