Episode #218

Maria Franzoni

00:00:17 – 00:01:06

Welcome back to The Speaker Show with me, your host, Maria Franzoni. In today’s show, we’re going to be talking about the topic that I really love. It’s the future of customer centric city. But before we get started, let me tell you that the speaker show is brought to you by Speakers Associates, the global Speaker Bureau for the world’s most successful organisations, providing keynote speakers for events, conferences and summits. My guest today believes in a bright future where companies play the long term game with their customers. His passion is spreading ideas about the future of customer experience. He believes in the combination of common sense new technologies, an empathic human touch, playing the long term game and taking your social responsibility to win the hearts and business of customers over and over again.

Maria Franzoni

00:01:06 – 00:01:25

He’s the author of multiple international bestselling books, including The Conversation Manager. When Digital becomes Human Customers, The Day After Tomorrow and The Offer You Can’t Refuse. Please welcome my guest, Steven van Belleghem. Steven, it is wonderful to see you. How are you today?

Steven van Belleghem

00:01:25 – 00:01:29

I’m good, Maria. It’s a it’s a pleasure to be a guest in your show. Thanks for having me.

Maria Franzoni

00:01:29 – 00:01:33

Wonderful. And where are you in the world today? Are you home?

Steven van Belleghem

00:01:33 – 00:01:44

I’m close to home. I mean, I’m in my streaming studio that I created during Covid, but it’s like five minutes from my home, which is close to brooch in Belgium.

Maria Franzoni

00:01:44 – 00:02:03

Fantastic. I love the fact that you’ve created your own streaming studio. Because really, that goes to the heart of what you’re talking about. You’re you’re giving great service, aren’t you? So let’s dive into your topic here. Um, how can companies win the hearts of their customers these days when there’s so much noise?

Steven van Belleghem

00:02:03 – 00:04:47

Yeah, I think the challenge is to make customers have to make customers happier have increased in the past couple of years, especially with covid. Then we had the big digital jump forward. And because of that, people really know very well what works and doesn’t work in terms of digital. So I think that the items that we used to invest in to make a difference like products and basic customer service and and digital interfaces those used to be the differentiators in the past couple of years. Today there are more like a minimum demand. It keeps you in the race. It doesn’t let you win the race. And and today I work with two strategies to help us, to help companies differentiate themselves in the market. And the first one is what I call a partner in life strategy, which means that you try to bring a service that brings value in the day to day life of customers. It’s not really about the customer journey. It’s more about the life journey. What is going on in the life of the human behind the customer and the better you understand the human behind the customer, the better. You can create services that actually add value in the day to day life of people, and then you become a partner in life, and a second strategy to make a difference is trying to figure out how you can add value to society. We have a lot of global challenges on our plate. Just think about fight against discrimination, racism. We have a climate issue that is becoming more and more important every day. We have geopolitical issues, so there’s a lot going on, and more and more people really understand that, and more and more people are looking to organisations to become part of the solution. And I think the challenge here is not just to do well for society, but to do it in a way that it’s using the core strength of your organisation, that it involves customers so that it becomes part of your story line and that it’s not just something that you do on the side, but that it’s something that is close to the core of your strength and then it has an impact on on the market. So to answer your questions, I think therefore four elements today to bring value to customers that’s still having a good product and service. That’s that’s what we need digital interfaces. But then to make a difference, the partner in life strategy and adding value to society and those for individually actually bring value to customers. What I strongly believe in is if you bring them together in one storyline in one experience, that you have a very, very strong offer. I called it an offer people can’t refuse. It’s also the title of my latest book, where you bring those four layers those four dimensions together to really win the heart and the business of your customers.

Maria Franzoni

00:04:47 – 00:05:43

Well, I’ve made a lot of notes here, Steven, because that’s fantastic. I love those four elements, as you said, the product and service, the digital, the partner in life and adding value. But I love the fact that instead of talking about the customer journey, which really is more about the organisation and the journey, you take the customer through. You’re talking about the life journey, which is totally customer centric. It’s where is that customer in life and how are you supporting them? That’s why I want to talk more about that later. But I I love that concept and the whole point about adding value to society, not something you add on the side. We can tell as customers. We can smell it. We can smell. It’s not genuine and not in the core of your business. But you’re just adding that on, um and it’s interesting what you say about digital convenience. So digital convenience. Really, if I’m understanding it correctly, it has become a commodity. Is that right? Can you Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Steven van Belleghem

00:05:43 – 00:06:36

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. If you look to successful companies that really grow strongly in the past 10 years, Let’s say, between 2010 and 2020 most of those companies made a difference by being extremely convenient and being more convenient than the existing players in the market. Or then they’re direct competitors. Think of companies like uber Amazon, Netflix, those kind of companies today. We all know perfectly what works well and doesn’t work Well, I mean, if you look to the apps that we have on the homepage of our phone, those are apps that are typically very user friendly, and those set the bar. And sometimes companies don’t understand that, like energy companies don’t tell me. Yeah, but in the energy business and the utility business, I mean, we’re all lagging behind, so it’s not an issue. But for the customer, it is

Steven van Belleghem

00:06:36 – 00:07:15

because we don’t compare different utility companies with each other. We compare this one utility company with Netflix. We compare it with our mobile banking app, and that’s the bar. And I think that today we live in a world of zero tolerance for digital inconvenience, and that has a lot to do with the fact that time is our scarcest resource, right? Time is we’re always short on time. So we as customers, we are not willing to invest our precious time in the digital incompetence of a certain organisation. So So we know very well what works and doesn’t, which means that our expectations today is that a company has that in order.

Steven van Belleghem

00:07:15 – 00:07:32

And if they don’t, it becomes a negative differentiator. But if they do, it doesn’t become a positive differentiator. It’s just something that we find absolutely normal that they have that installed. So it’s the ticket to right. It’s not the ticket to win. It has become a commodity.

Maria Franzoni

00:07:32 – 00:08:21

Wow, you described me basically zero tolerance. I really do. I genuinely have zero tolerance for something going wrong. And you also named some of my favourite providers, you know, because they’re convenient but also their reliable. There’s no uncertainty around it. And you, as you said, they use a friendly. Um, you’re absolutely right. It’s I expect that to work, and I do compare some of the service that I get from utility companies and we can talk about other companies to not just utility. I should prepare a list of people that annoy me. Um, there You’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. So, um, if convenience is a commodity, then how can digital be used to create a better customer experience?

Steven van Belleghem

00:08:21 – 00:08:41

That’s a very good point. And I think that in the next couple of years, we’re going to see some very exciting evolutions. And and there are two that I get really excited about. The first one is artificial intelligence. I mean, everyone knows that this is coming. That’s nothing new. But if you if you look to a typical adoption curve

Steven van Belleghem

00:08:41 – 00:09:24

for a typical evolution curve of a new technology, it’s typically that s curve right, and and the really exciting things happen in the second half of the curve in the first half of the curve. The technology is overhyped, and it’s under delivering upon its promise. Um, and we’re still in that phase in terms of AI. We’re still dreaming about certain applications, but we don’t see them yet. That’s because we’re still in the first half of the curve next year, two years from now, three years from now. Somewhere in those couple of years, we’re going to enter the second half of the curve and that’s when we’re going to see more automation. All the things that we talked about that are linked to Internet of things, automation, faster applications, more personalised applications. All those things will

Steven van Belleghem

00:09:24 – 00:10:09

come to life in the next couple of years, and that again will will change customer experience. So that’s one evolution, another one that I’m really interested in. It’s more niche still at this moment, but it’s the evolution of N. F. T s non fungible tokens, the technology that allows you to buy exclusively for you a digital asset which is new in the digital world. We’re used to buying things in the physical world, like a car or a phone or whatever, anything. And then we own it because we pay for it in the digital world. If you create something, it will spread around the Internet, and nobody really knew who the owner was of that creation. That has changed now. So you now have a line on the Blockchain that you know who the original owner is

Steven van Belleghem

00:10:09 – 00:10:50

of a certain digital asset, and then you can buy that today. And if these are being used a lot in in in the creative world, artists young artists are selling their digital drawings online. Or musicians are trying to find people who are willing to invest in them and by their first songs, um, to to support them and and and now we’re in this phase of collectibles. So there are a lot of companies who create collectible items like you have model with their hot wheels. You know, those those cars, little toy cars, A lot of people collect them. Now you can buy digital cars and paying. People are paying a fortune for those. So we’re in this collectible phase.

Steven van Belleghem

00:10:50 – 00:11:08

I think in in the next few years we’re going to see how N F. D s. And this philosophy of owning a digital asset could potentially change customer loyalty completely. Because imagine that you buy certain digital asset from a company

Steven van Belleghem

00:11:08 – 00:11:46

and this company becomes more popular. The value of that asset will increase. Or if that company becomes less popular or they do something really wrong, the value of that asset will decrease. So you’re you’re part of that branded economy. You’re part of them, so you have a shared interest. If they are performing well, the value of your assets will increase in value If they do a bad job, you’re suffering as well today. Customer loyalty is like I have to do a lot of things as a customer first. And then I usually get a reward like I have to buy 10 breaths and then the 11th one is for free. So I have to show my loyalty to them. And then they give a little bit of loyalty back with N F. T s.

Steven van Belleghem

00:11:46 – 00:12:37

You’re in the same game together, and I benefit from the fact that the company that I buy from performs well and this can create a complete new form of fan engagement, a complete new form of customer engagement and and again today, this is This is day one of this evolution. But I’m convinced that this technology of N. F. D s if we look back in 2030 that this will change the Internet as fundamentally as smartphones change the Internet because now we have this new possibility to actually buy something digitally and you own it, and people can put a smart contract in it that unbox a certain value for you. So the possibilities are endless. And again, today it’s about collectibles tomorrow it’s going to be about customer loyalty and I get really excited about those possibilities.

Maria Franzoni

00:12:37 – 00:13:13

Wow, absolutely. Wow, that’s fried my brain that really that really has That’s amazing. That makes the two things that you said at the beginning about, you know, being a partner in life and adding value to society. Even more important for any organisation that you’re investing in, the N F T is that you were talking about that has fried my brain. I can’t even imagine it. So I’m very excited about that. I can see why you’re excited. What a great job to do. Um, let’s come back to this being a partner in life. Tell me a bit more about that and and maybe if you can give some examples of anybody that’s doing it already, I mean, that would be amazing

Steven van Belleghem

00:13:13 – 00:13:39

absolutely with pleasure. And a few minutes ago, I think you made this excellent summary of saying a customer journey. We call it a customer journey, but it’s it’s another word in many organisations for a sales funnel where you try to guide people to the point where you want them to be, and then bang you sell them something, and there’s there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, we need We need to sell stuff. I’m a big fan of selling stuff, but the life journey is something

Steven van Belleghem

00:13:39 – 00:14:19

different. It’s about looking at the world from a customer point of view and trying to understand the movie that people have about their life in the back of their minds, about the things that that scares them, the things that they hope for it to happen in their life, their dreams, their ambitions, their fears and the better you understand those, the more value you can create in people’s lives. Now a few examples. There’s this company that I know. It’s in real estate. It’s called a great estate, and they mainly build apartments, apartment buildings for students so students can rent a room and then studied there for a couple of years. And then they move out again. Yeah,

Steven van Belleghem

00:14:19 – 00:14:48

typically, that industry is just creating buildings and it’s renting out square metres, right? That’s what you do. You pay a monthly fee and then you have access to that one room. They do that as well, but on top of that they want to be. They just don’t just want to rent out student apartments. They want to be a partner in the successful start of a career. So they created a whole bunch of yeah, extra services for their students to make a difference. And and the one thing that I like most is that in all of those buildings

Steven van Belleghem

00:14:48 – 00:15:35

they made sure that there’s a mental coach available in all of those buildings 24 7. Because students aren’t just party animals. A lot of students are lonely, for instance, or they’re afraid to go to the exams. Or there’s a conflict in those buildings or worst case, one of their friends dies in an accident. For instance, all those things happen every year in their student community. They make sure that they have this mental coach available to talk with them to help them out. And and, for instance, during Covid, they had a number of students that couldn’t pay their monthly rent anymore. Um, their parents weren’t paying for their room, so they paid for it themselves. But most of that money came from student jobs that were, you know, on helping out during events or in restaurants or in bars.

Steven van Belleghem

00:15:35 – 00:16:12

So all those places closed down and they didn’t have any money anymore, so they couldn’t afford to room. So then, as a as a landlord, you can say, Okay, we have a problem here, and you need to pay me every month and you’re not doing it. So we’re going to kick you out. But they know that if you kick out a student that that student will drop out of school and we’ll find a job that is far below their possibilities and they will never catch up again. So they will suffer from that their entire life. So they were like, No, this is a very unique situation. We’re not going to kick out. Those students were going to help them out, so they created a fund.

Steven van Belleghem

00:16:12 – 00:16:50

They went to all their students and the parents of all their students, and they said, Look, this is the situation that we have. Why don’t all of us, if you can just give give us €100 we’ll put it in some sort of a fund and we’re going to double every €100 and and let’s see what we can do with that. And after two weeks they had €3 million that they had collected for their funds. So they paid the rent for those students. And on top of that, they learned that 60% of their students was suffering from from mental illness because of covid. I mean, it was really bad for for them. So they hired instantly. 20 psychologists and the students could use them for free

Steven van Belleghem

00:16:50 – 00:17:21

because they knew that was important to keep them going and to make sure that they would feel better and that they would succeed in their exams, increasing the chance that they would have a successful start of their career. So and I can I can talk for an hour about these guys, but just these few examples to show their mindset. This isn’t just about making money by renting out the room. This is really caring about the human behind that customer and doing what’s best for that person. And I think that’s just wonderful how they how they deal with that.

Maria Franzoni

00:17:21 – 00:17:34

It’s phenomenal. It’s an amazing, amazing story, and it goes back to what you were saying about, you know, doing something, adding real value. They’re adding value to the community. They’re adding value to, you know, they’re investing in the future. Aren’t they really in exactly

Steven van Belleghem

00:17:34 – 00:17:34

future?

Maria Franzoni

00:17:34 – 00:17:53

That’s phenomenal. Um, and I would have loved to have had a psychologist when I was a student. Um, and many years after, I think because you mentioned the being afraid to go to exams for years, I woke up in a sweat, thinking, I haven’t revised, you know, like 30 years after I finish studying, I still occasionally panic. Anyway.

Steven van Belleghem

00:17:53 – 00:18:02

You still remember that feeling, don’t you? Crazy That level of stress never comes back again in your professional life, but we still feel it if you think about it

Maria Franzoni

00:18:02 – 00:18:16

absolutely. And many other things that happen when as a student, which I’m not going to talk about here. I love what you said earlier as well that you are a big fan of selling. I think that’s so important. Without a sale, there is no customer, right?

Steven van Belleghem

00:18:16 – 00:18:31

Exactly, exactly. It’s It’s not a bad word that if you do a good job, you’re going to sell a lot, so it’s eventually The goal is to be successful in what you in what you do. So I’m a big fan of that absolutely

Maria Franzoni

00:18:31 – 00:18:42

fantastic So we’ve been talking a lot about AI and about digital. And of course, you have to think about and ask the question, How important is the human touch in this? Whether humans come in?

Steven van Belleghem

00:18:42 – 00:19:38

Yeah, I’m a big fan of humans and customer service. I’m a nonbeliever of digital only customer relationships. Um, I think for most of us, that doesn’t work. Which doesn’t mean that digital is less important and and probably 95% of my interactions with the bank. I can perfectly deal with digital only, but there are 5% of the times when I really need to have a human to talk to. And it’s very simple. The more emotional my question is, or the more emotional my context is, the higher the need for human. I mean, when when my parents would pass away or if my house would burn down, or if something bad would happen with my Children, then I don’t want to talk to a chat bolt. Then I need a human that I can, you know, share my my feelings with. So So

Steven van Belleghem

00:19:38 – 00:20:24

I’m a nonbeliever of digital only, and the funny thing is, the more digital the world becomes the more valuable that human part will be. It’s basically the old economic law of scarcity that plays here. The scarce or something becomes the more valuable it is. And in the last couple of years, the human part in the customer relationship has deeply decreased in frequency. And just because of that, it actually has increased in value. Um, but we have to We have to look for for our moments. I I don’t think you need to make sure that a human adds value during every interaction, because sometimes a human can be a friction. If I’m just into the context of fast and easy. I don’t want to chit chat with someone. I don’t need the human touch. I just need the convenience.

Steven van Belleghem

00:20:24 – 00:21:12

But the moment that I wanted, it needs to be available. But I as a customer, I will make that choice. You cannot decide upon that as an organisation, but you need to be flexible enough to make sure that I have access to both possibilities so I can choose my preferred channel. But the crazy thing is the typical human values or typical human skills, like take empathy, for instance, but also enthusiasm to a certain extent. Creativity. There’s typical human qualities. They will increase in value in the next couple of years because those are values are skills that a computer doesn’t have yet. And I think that’s where we need to focus on customer experience. Make sure that your humans excel in those fields where computers are not good at.

Steven van Belleghem

00:21:12 – 00:21:17

And if you can do that, then you can bring a really strong proposition towards your customers.

Maria Franzoni

00:21:17 – 00:21:30

I love that. So you said empathy, enthusiasm and creativity. And But you said yet do you think machines will? Will I learn to be empathetic, enthusiastic and creative.

Steven van Belleghem

00:21:30 – 00:22:26

They will absolutely learn to become creative. It’s an illusion that a machine cannot be creative. I mean, you give them a bunch of data and they come up with things that we haven’t come up with. We’ve already seen examples in just in playing goal. In making music and making paintings. A machine can be creative. Um, the empathy part is, without any doubt, the most difficult one. I don’t see a machine that could be as empathetic as certain humans can in the next 20 or 30 years, because most brain experts don’t even know how empathy works in our brains. It’s still an untapped domain in, in, in, in the human science. So let alone that we could do that in a I. So, in my opinion, that’s going to be the most important one to focus on.

Steven van Belleghem

00:22:26 – 00:23:04

And it’s my recommendation that I do every day to organisations. In my keynote, make sure that as many people as possible in your organisation get direct customer feedback not through a Excel sheet, not through a customer satisfaction survey, but by talking to real customers, preferably face to face. Because then you feel the feedback directly and that is the best tactic and strategy. You have to increase the level of empathy in your organisation, and that will be a differentiator to win the game in the next couple of years.

Maria Franzoni

00:23:04 – 00:23:33

That’s really interesting. I’ve written that down as well because I’m going to apply that in my business. I think that’s really good. I like that. Here’s a question for you. You know you have a strong opinion or did have a strong opinion. I wonder if it’s the same. So several years ago you said that there’s no such thing as an internal client and yet it’s something that a lot of organisations talk about that you serve your internal client. Talk to me. Do you still feel the same way and talk to me about who that internal client is? Do they exist? And who are they?

Steven van Belleghem

00:23:33 – 00:24:24

I still hold that belief. I’ve been to so many organisations and they always talk about the internal client and it doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. And it also creates an unbalanced internally because if I am your client, it kind of means that you have to serve me. Um and that’s not the goal of colleagues. I mean, I T Department is not the servant of a marketing or sales department. You’re both into this game together. You both bring value to the table that at the end of the day should create value for the only customer you have the real customer, the one that is paying for your services or products. So it’s It’s a crazy idea that people that are not customer facing, that they don’t work for the customer.

Steven van Belleghem

00:24:24 – 00:25:08

I think that you need to make make it as clear as possible for everyone in your organisation how they contribute to making customers happier. And you know if if you have customer satisfaction data, drill it down as deep as you can, so you can go to the people in the invoicing department and say, Look, this is how you contribute to making clients happier. You go to people of accounting, you go to people that are working on HR. You tell them. Look, this is this is the situation, and this is your role in this to make our customer happy. And we’re going to do this together. And then you’re in this one team with this one goal and you’re everyone in the team has brings value to the table. That is as important.

Steven van Belleghem

00:25:08 – 00:25:29

And in my opinion, that is a much healthier situation, a much more motivating situation than when you have to work for an internal client. It’s like a software that we invented invented to say you have to serve me as I am your customer. But you’re not your co workers. Your working together to help the end client. That’s what you need to do.

Maria Franzoni

00:25:29 – 00:25:32

Good. I like that. I I agree with you, by the way.

Steven van Belleghem

00:25:32 – 00:25:33

So

Maria Franzoni

00:25:33 – 00:25:41

you mentioned your book an offer you can’t refuse and you have a model. Um uh oh. I see our model, which obviously

Steven van Belleghem

00:25:41 – 00:25:41

the initials

Maria Franzoni

00:25:41 – 00:25:50

initials from that book. And within that model, you talk about changing your world. How does that link back to the customer experience?

Steven van Belleghem

00:25:50 – 00:26:26

Uh, it’s what I touched upon briefly in in the beginning of our talk, having have creating value for society, um, in a way that it links back to your business. So there are a lot of companies that do a lot of good causes, but they’re on the site, they’re supporting charity, and it’s really important. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. But very often those companies are disappointed that they’re doing all these good causes. But the customer doesn’t even know about it, and it doesn’t have any impact on their business. So if you want to make a difference for the world and you wanted to have an impact on your customers’ perception,

Steven van Belleghem

00:26:26 – 00:26:59

then it has to be linked back to your business. Like Warby Parker, you buy a pair of glasses, we give a pair of glasses, and in most of those cases, the customer also contributes to adding value to society Like this morning. I had a meeting with a fashion retailer and and they create their own products. So they create their own clothes and they have their own retail chains. So they own everything from beginning till the end. And now we talked about that. They’re going to invite all their customers to return

Steven van Belleghem

00:26:59 – 00:27:47

close. It’s the Children’s around, so to return all the clothes that their Children don’t wear anymore, then they will get some loyalty points that they can use again to buy new products. And the company will will repair the used clothes and then sell them second hand. So they’re going to create this this entire journey right to to make a difference. And, you know, by doing so, you increase the the life of those fashion items. But your customers are involved in it. They contribute to the success. They contribute to making a difference, and then they know that they will talk about it, and then it influences their decision. If they want to buy more or less from you because it’s related to your core strength and it’s linked back to the customer and then it works and you know then you’re changing your world.

Steven van Belleghem

00:27:47 – 00:28:20

Uh, this is a mistake that I made in my book. I remember when I wrote the chapter, it was changed the world, and I actually motivated there in the book why I said that everyone should change in the world. But I don’t agree with myself anymore. It’s a new insight. Not every company can change the world. That’s not possible. But every company can change their world. We all have our influence. Even as an individual, we can change our world. We have an influence, and if you use that in the right way, you make a difference. And that’s that’s what I mean with that.

Maria Franzoni

00:28:20 – 00:28:46

I love that because also, if you re position that has to change your world as opposed to change the world, everybody can do something that and make a difference. Often, when you see people who are talking about changing the world and they are changing the world, you feel a little bit inadequate. But if you’re changing your world, everybody can do that. That’s such a positive thought to leave us with, and actually is there anything else you would like to leave our listeners with? before I let you go and thank you.

Steven van Belleghem

00:28:46 – 00:29:14

Uh, no. If people are interested in my work, they can check me out on on YouTube, for instance. I have a very active YouTube YouTube YouTube channel. Sorry, it’s just YouTube dot com slash my name. Share a lot of videos there or on my instagram. I share a lot of ideas and content about customer experience. So everyone is welcome to to join that community as well. And next to that, I really hope that people enjoyed our conversation. I did so thanks for having me.

Maria Franzoni

00:29:14 – 00:29:45

I thoroughly did. I really do. Thank you so much, Steven. And I want to thank everybody for listening into the speaker show. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating on apple podcasts. And you can keep up with future episodes on the Speakers Associates website or, of course, your favourite app. And if you need Steven’s helping your organisation, be sure to contact speakers associates to book him in very good time. He’s very booked up and grab your coffee. Copy. Not coffee. Your copy of the book, The Offer You Can’t Refuse. Thank you so much, Steven. And thank you everybody for listening.